MODIFIERS: Following the Zoom of Another Layer

[im42n8]

[Updated 100122] One of the problems that we've been experiencing with modifiers is getting the zoom of one layer to zoom along at the same rate and amount as the zoom of another layer.

It's been pointed out in previous discussions (that is, we surmised) that the zoom that a slave layer sees of a another layer is a percent of that zoom. If you download the modifiers intro off the Photodex site (it's a modified version of what was initially provided), the last page of that manual has a specific reference to how the zoom function is interpreted.

So, if you have the slave layer follow the zoom of the master layer, you will not get an exact zoom of that layer on the slave layer (at least not directly). Bummer. What you get for a zoom value is effectively a percent of a percent. Knowing that gives us a clue as to how to compensate. The following gives some basic information that should get you started with relying on modifiers vs keyframes on the slave layer to follow the zoom amounts of another layer. While this is basic information, it does assume you have a working knowledge of modifiers (or that you have an adventurous and inquisitive nature).

To get a layer to exactly follow the zoom of another layer:
Layer 1 is the "master" layer. Layer 2 is the referencing/referrer layer

1) Zoom (master) Set the zoom values of the various keyframes as desired
2) Zoom (refferer) Set the zoom values on the first and last keyframes (the only ones you should have for this to work) to the maximum zoom reached by the master layer over the time between the first and last keyframes
3) On the referring layer, create a modifier on the Zoom-X
a) Set Variable Amount Based on to Zoom-X
b) Set From[\i] to Layer 1.
c) Leave [i]Multiplied By set at 1.00
d) Add an Action (hit "+" in the Action window).
e) Change Type of Action to [-] Subtract from Modifier
f) Enter a constant of 100
4) On the Referring layer, create a modifier on the Zoom-Y
-- Develop this modifier with the same settings as on Zoom-X except the Amount Based On is for Zoom-Y.

This particular setup should work for many / most situations where a layer relies on the amount of zoom on another layer such that the zoom is the same or very similar to the zoom on that other layer.

This is the basics of it and you can experiment from here. Once you start changing parameters from these I think you'll find things can get pretty interesting. Note that if the master layer varies its zoom from 15% to 90%, this means that the keyframes on the referring layer will be set to 90 to get the zooms of both layers the same.

Hope this helps someone! I was certainly happy to hit on this result ... it's a real labor saver for some of my work! As you can see, the "fix" is deceptively simple. At least it's worked for me so far!

Dale

Here's a demo of the technique described above.
Demo #1: http://www.photodex.com/sharing/viewsho ... alb=148411
Demo #2: http://www.photodex.com/sharing/viewsho ... alb=148411

NOTES:
1) Adding a rotate value to the referenced/master layer seems to break this fix/adjustment (PSP releases prior to and including version 4.1.2737)
2) This fix/adjustment also begins to fail for values of zoom approaching 0 when the maximum zoom value is larger than 200 (PSP releases prior to version 4.1.2712)

[cherub]

Dale,
I think you are onto the right thing here. I've also reached this stage in my pursuits for the elusive zoom modifiers.
But, something still eludes me: How to preserve the relative position between the "master" and the "slave" (as you called them), during zooming. My problem is that the "distance" between them is not proportionally maintained during zooming.

Let's try to do this together, please:


These are two gradients (720x720) each with a vignette of 10%
The red circle (the master) - Layer 2 - is at Pan 0 x +18 (plus18), with a zoom of 42%
The blue circle (the slave) is - Layer 1) - is at Pan 0 x - 9 (minus 9), with a zoom of 34
It covers slightly layer 2.

I want both layers to follow these keyframes:
K1 - upper left corner, master is at 15% zoom
K2 - down to the bottom right corner, at 42% zoom
K3 - stay as in K2
K4 - move to bottom left corner, at 55% zoom
k5(end of slide) - stay as in k4
The times are not important, just the movement, and keeping the proportions during zoom.

How do you establish the proportional distances, Dale ?

[cherub]

I took a look at your demos and I just thought of something.
Without using modifiers, I would create those effect by first creating the motions of one layer, then duplicate it and changing all the pan x values from + (plus) to - (minus), and vice versa, as needed.
Not sure which way would be easier - with modifiers or without.

[rdurga]

To me, mona's way of duplicating the master layer to create slave layer and then make changes to the parameters in the slave layer is good enough for my kind of simple applications.

I have to really understand dale's way of creating zoom in master and slave layers and their applications in specific instances.

ram

[im42n8]

Mona,

The demo was a simple one on purpose. There are multiple ways to creating the demo I created IF all I wanted to do was to create that particular effect. The purpose of the two demos was to show that you can make a layer duplicate the zoom of another layer exactly using only modifiers. Nobody else that I know of has shown that ability to date.

Think about it, once the motion of the master layer is created and all the other layers follow that layers' motion and zoom, when it comes time to change the characteristics of that master layers movements (position/zoom/rotation/etc), I ONLY have to change ONE layer, not many. The rest of the layers will automatically adjust accordingly.

In the initial demo, there were only two images moving on the screen ... one depending on the other for both position and size. In the 2nd demo, there were 6 layers depending on a single layer for both size and position. Changing the characteristics of the master layer's path and size was a simple matter of making changes on a single layer (if I changed the maximum zoom of that master layer tho, then the max zoom on each of the other layers had to likewise change if I wanted to keep the exact same size relationship).

The demo is obviously not going to make an impression on those who don't realize what they're looking at...kind of like seeing the forest but not noticing all those trees. The value comes when you realize what is being shown and what its significance is.

Dale

Note: in my demos, the master layer had many keyframes while ALL of other layers had only the default two keyframes... The slave layers all kept their sizes the same as that of the master layer: the zooms of those other layers (as well as the positioning) was completely controlled by modifiers (as described earlier).

[im42n8]

WRT your example Mona, I've run into a similar problem when working with my example. Keeping the relative distances is, at this juncture, easier to do by careful planning and the use of keyframes ... at least for the example you provided. There is a way to do it with modifiers applied to specific keyframe pairs ... but that's essentially doing the same thing as you'd do manually.

Dale

[cherub]

Dale,
I realize what you gave us. It's a tremendous start and a great tutorial. I appreciate it very much, have no doubt.
It's just that in most cases I don't have too many identical and symmetrical things going on in my slides. Just like in your example, there may be two or maybe three things, at the most. So, modifiers are not really useful for me in these cases.
What I would really like is for us to be able to group those layers into a container or similar, (in the example that I gave), so that they really act like one, where motion is concerned. I'm dreaming of the day when we will find the answer to that puzzle, or when maybe Photodex will give it to us.
All my best

[im42n8]

Mona,

I fully understand what you're saying! Yep, grouping things in containers or linking items together would definitely help sometimes. I've wanted that every now and then so I could "simplify" what I was trying to do. But, since we can't right now, there's gots to be a way of doing it manually. I guess we're just not smart enough to do it yet using modifiers. Gads, look how long it took to figure out how to create a practical way of way using modifiers to link the zoom of one layer to another! In the end it was a simple method with an associated caveat. Someone will probably discover the secret of effectively creating and manipulating a group of containers (and watch, it'll be simple!... )

The zoom following technique I just uncovered is something I've been wanting to do for some time now. It's useful for manually created border/shadow layers that need to zoom with the image and mask set (because, as we all know, using a modifier to directly follow the reference/master layer zoom does not work ... requiring the addition of keyframes on each additional layer to control their zoom). Well no longer. But, those are simple applications.

When there are more than one collective set of items that move together but that need adjusting of their relative paths slightly as the size of each item changes, it looks like we'll have to use modifiers judiciously (with the addition of keyframes!). Maybe someone can figure out a simple way of modifying the modifiers appropriately to do just that.

Dale

[benitoben]

hi, i'm new here and i'm also new to proshow producer, so i've tried dale's way and it works perfect, but only to zoom, when i use it in combination with pan i've a problem to preserve the relative position between the layers like Mona said, it works only if they have the same x and y positon ( for example x=0,y=0 for both) if i offset one's position it does'nt work, so i don't know if it has to do with the anchorpoint or something else.i have to find a way to resolve this problem.

thanks and by the way nice forum you have here, and sorry for my english ..lol.

[im42n8]

Hi and welcome! I'm impressed you're already jumping into modifiers. Most folk are intimidated by them. However, the instructions I gave were to help just such folk as you to jump in for some of the more basic, but very useful, aspects of using modifiers. It can really open you up some really useful effects early on. Most excellent!

I'm not sure what the problem is at the moment. You can't keep the relative position between two layers as they change size, in the fashion mentioned by Mona. . . that's true. But, you can combine the pan and zoom for layers w/o a problem. Relative to the same relative spacing between two or more layers as they zoom up is a limitation. To compensate for that you have to carefully plan what you want or need to do. Most situations won't require a relative spacing between layers to occur. In some situations that might be desirable . . . so you'll have to do something mitigate any attention that might be normally be paid to that situation, like other movement to draw the eyes away, a change in color scheme or some other "trick"

I'm sure that after you experiment with the various ways to apply this trick that you'll find other uses for it too. You'll also find where and when it will not work as you want. There can be some significant limitations once you step beyond the basics and start trying the more complicated variations.

Have fun experimenting!

Dale